Fermenting in a vapor-proof bag

[FmGrowit]

I had to move the tobacco distributing business from the spare room, basement, garage and half of my bedroom into a warehouse. Everything is being broken down into the most commonly sold sized package.

I broke open a 20 lb. bag of BBB that I sealed back in October...maybe earlier. I wanted to try to put sealed bags in a heated water-bath to simulate kilning the leaf, but never was able to find the time...anyway, I opened the bag of Larry's Burley and holy crap did it stink up the place. After shaking out the still perfectly cased hands, I let them air out for an hour.

It's really surprising how well those bags sealed in the gases from the leaf, but even after an hour of airing out, the leaf still had a sweet/ammonia smell to it. I've never used a kiln before, so I don't know exactly what you guys smell when the leaf is cooking. From what I have heard though, I think this leaf fermented lightly while sealed in the bag.

The color of the leaf appears to be unchanged from when it was first sealed, so I think heat is needed to for altering the flavor and color to a cigar type leaf.

 

[Tom_in_TN]

Don, thanks for sharing that information. I always figured you would be going through a few changes in your living arrangements with getting this site and your business up to speed, so thanks for doing the heavy lifting.

One thing I remember from all my experience is that tobacco, cigars, need a breath of air every so often as it ages. The longer it ages, the less need for fresh air. If the leaf has any sweet/ammonia smell to it then it has not fully aged. What appears to be going on in the situation you described is what happens when enough moisture is left in the leaf but it has not fully aged. So, it is a good thing to seal up those bags but not to be alarmed if people experience the same smells you did when opening that bag of Larry's Burley. All that is needed is to just give the tobacco a good airing out. Then once it airs out it will smoke OK. But, keeping the moisture in the leaf and aging the leaf a little longer, 3 to 4 months might be the ticket, will just help keep the fermentation process going and make the final smoke better.

The 4 year old Dark Air ligero leaf I bought from you did not have any sweet/ammonia smell to it when I opened it and it tastes like it has fully aged. It was the perfect case for shredding up and I have been mixing this with some pipe tobacco and really enjoy it a lot. It adds a nice 'peppery' spice on the tongue and a few other nuanced, complex flavors that are good.

So, I think time is needed for bringing out the full flavor of any tobacco leaf. The bags you are using to ship that whole leaf tobacco is very good.

 

[deluxestogie]

Don,
That's good news, as well as interesting. I suppose it might be a good idea to inform buyers that the leaf may need to air-out for a bit, because of your proprietary aging process.

The fermentation:
If there is oxygen in the bag, the humidity (anything more than dry) together with temperatures above ~60ºF will allow the oxidase enzymes in the leaf to become active. The higher the temp (so long as it's below 141ºF), the faster the oxidation. The only difference between the bagged leaf and leaf hanging in your curing barn is that the conditions are more stable (and more constantly favorable to oxidation) inside the bag.

In-bag aging presents, I think, two particular issues:

• The RH inside the bag needs to be below 80% at the ambient temperature, in order to inhibit mold growth. This is actually fairly tricky, since the stems tend to hold more moisture than the lamina. So lowish-medium case might be a goal.
• How much of the oxygen inside the bag is consumed in the oxidation process per month of room temperature aging? If it is entirely consumed at some point, then the in-bag aging would approach zero. As Tom points out, it may not need much oxygen after the initial process winds down. Initial "sweat" is presumed to exhaust itself over 4 to 8 weeks. (I assume that's the only part of aging that is truly rapid.) Beyond that, the process is usually much slower, unless there is supplemental heat. It might be interesting to compare the BBB that you've just opened with a similar bag that is left sealed until this autumn (total 1 year in the bag), to see if there is any significant additional change.

The poly/Nylon bags:
When I open one of the bags, I do so by cutting one end. To use the leaf it contains, I slide out the carefully folded leaf as a bundle, remove one leaf, then slide the bundle back in. I then fold and roll the end of the bag down to the tobacco, and place a single wooden clothespin on the rolled edge to hold it in place. Unlike leaf stored in a common poly bag--leaf which invariably requires misting at least once every week or two to keep it in low case, the leaf in the poly/Nylon bag closed as described maintains its case for about 2 months in my kitchen. I never throw out these poly/Nylon bags. I think that 3 clothespins across the roll would allow it to keep the leaf in case for a very long time. I plan to bring some of my still hanging leaf from last season into case, close it up inside one of those bags, and see what magic it works.

Bob

 

[FmGrowit]

I also have 100 lb. bags of the same material. I think I'll use them for fresh color cured leaf and put them on a scheduled 3 month "refresh" routine. Rather than thermal-sealing the bags, I'll just use a zip tie to close them.

Mold is always the biggest concern when dealing with leaf in any condition other than dry. There is an optimal balance somewhere between moisture content and temperature to achieve the most accelerated forced aging of the leaf. We all know temperatures below 70° prevent mold growth and reduced moisture content above 70°will also prevent mold growth, but what I'd like to learn is...At what temperature and moisture content will the leaf "ferment" similarly to that achieved in a traditional "pilone" and what amount of time will it take.

Another element worth consideration is, can mold be prevented with leaf in high case at temperatures above 120° by introducing a gas into a sealed bag that won't affect or prevent the natural enzymes from aging the leaf? Traditional pilones basically allow nature to run rampant, but monitor it and just before the leaf begins to rot the process is stopped. I'd like to find something of a fool-proof aging/fermenting process that recreates a traditional pilone without associated risk.

My suspicions are that the leaf will have to be in light case because anything above that would trigger the natural decomposition process to begin within the bag. Another question I want to answer is...Can a Burley that is forced aged in medium case under 70° for 6 months which is intended for cigarette use, produce a leaf suitable for cigar use if it is processed in low case at higher temperatures?

The leaf has to possess certain naturally favorable elements before processing, but what will various processes do to the same leaf. Even slight variations in temperature and duration dramatically affects the finish product. I have a feeling I'm going to be doing some serious "note taking" this fall.

 

[BarG]

Don,
That's good news, as well as interesting. I suppose it might be a good idea to inform buyers that the leaf may need to air-out for a bit, because of your proprietary aging process.

"The poly/Nylon bags:
When I open one of the bags, I do so by cutting one end. To use the leaf it contains, I slide out the carefully folded leaf as a bundle, remove one leaf, then slide the bundle back in. I then fold and roll the end of the bag down to the tobacco, and place a single wooden clothespin on the rolled edge to hold it in place." Bob

Thats pretty much how I treat mine except for the flue cured, I leave sealed till ready for use and remove all the leaves to lower case a bit. I save all my bags also and use 2 wooden clothespins for my wrapper.

 

[deluxestogie]

Closing bags with clothespins must be an old codger thing.

Bob

 

[Jitterbugdude]

Another element worth consideration is, can mold be prevented with leaf in high case at temperatures above 120° by introducing a gas into a sealed bag that won't affect or prevent the natural enzymes from aging the leaf?

Well, Lets see: I have some vapor proof bags, a hand of tobacco that is not labeled and a bottle of Nitrogen. I'll hose some tobacco down tomorrow with water, put it in a vapor proof bag and fill it with Nitrogen before sealing it. I'm only in my early 50's so I'm a little young to be using clothespins. I suspect the leaf will still probably mold due to the fermentable sugars in the leaf.
Randy B

 

[deluxestogie]

Just a single whole leaf should tell the story.

Bob

 

[Jitterbugdude]

Actually, I decided on 3 leaves. I didn't have the heart to destroy an entire hand of tobacco.

 

[LeftyRighty]

I did a little of this 'fermenting-in-the-bag' trick this spring. I had a pound+ of deribbed burley, cured, but not fermented yet. Put it in one of FmGrowit's 1# vapor-proof-bags, put this in my kiln-fermenter, with the open-end open, and left it for 4 weeks. Burped once a week. After fermenting, I pinned the end closed and let it rest for two weeks, burped it again, then hot-iron sealed it shut. It was in about medium-case. That was 3 months ago.

Opened the bag this AM. Great aroma, still moist and pliable, aging nicely. I probably should have smoked some, but my experience has been that burleys need a year's rest after fermenting, before it's a decent smoke. Besides, I'm in no hurry, I'm still smoking my 2010 crop.

Almost all of my 2011 crop (total 35#) has been cured, deribbed, loose-baled, fermented, rested, and sealed into these Vapor-Proof-Bags. Am now shredding about 5# of Silkleaf and Coker 371, adding with some old burley/turkish, to pack into some bags and let mellow for a few months before smoking. Did smoke some yesterday, made a decent cigarette, smooth, full flavor, not harsh but it did have a bit of edge and aftertaste. Hoping a few months storage will cure this.

I really like these bags of FmGrowit's - great for storage, keeps it in case.. Am going to order more soon for this year's crop.

 

[johnlee1933]

Closing bags with clothespins must be an old codger thing.

Bob

What can I say? I have then left over from my airplane modeling. (At least you didn't call us "Old farts.")

By the way, am I the senior member here? 10/1933

John

 

[FmGrowit]

I save all my bags also and use 2 wooden clothespins for my wrapper.

I pinned the end closed and let it rest for two weeks, burped it again,

and place a single wooden clothespin on the rolled edge to hold it in place.

I think that 3 clothespins across the roll would allow it to keep the leaf in case for a very long time.

What can I say? I have them left over from my airplane modeling. (At least you didn't call us "Old farts.")

By the way, am I the senior member here? 10/1933

John

What's a clothes pin?...Senior Farts

 

[johnlee1933]

What's a clothes pin?...Senior Farts

LOL
By the way Don, I notice I am listed as a "Senior Member". Is that some kind of age discrimination?


John

 

[Jitterbugdude]

By the way, am I the senior member here? 10/1933

John

John, I had no idea you were "THAT OLD".. in the future if you want, I can type my messages using the largest font available...

 

[Jitterbugdude]

Another element worth consideration is, can mold be prevented with leaf in high case at temperatures above 120° by introducing a gas into a sealed bag

I started my little experiment this evening. Into 3 one half pint jars I put 2 leaves each ( in very heavy case). One jar had nothing added to it (the control jar), the other car I purged with Nitrogen gas and the third jar I purged with a 90% O2/10% CO2 mix. These will be kept in my basement where ambient temps are about 68 degrees F.

 

[BarG]

What's a clothes pin?...Senior Farts

I steal mine from my wife, she uses em to close potato chip bags. At least we don't need diaper pins, If I ever do just shoot me and throw me in the creek.

 

[FmGrowit]

At least we don't need diaper pins

Those are made with stretchy stuff on the sides now...just like the one your kids used to wear...just a little bigger. I don't use them because I need them. I use them just for the convenience.

 

[LittleBacco]

BarG, us Texan are like Oaks, the more we age, the harder we get!

 

[BarG]

Those are made with stretchy stuff on the sides now...just like the one your kids used to wear...just a little bigger. I don't use them because I need them. I use them just for the convenience.

My wife wanted to buy a sign says " No peeing off the porch" . I said I'll make you one.
I made her a sign that says..

" No peeing off the porch...Unless you live here"

My woman hates it. LOL

 

[LittleBacco]

Need to put a bottle there and save it, might need it to water the plants in the middle of the summer! Can't believe the cool temp we had today, in the middle of May?