Czech grow/snus blog 2020-2021

[Roastbeast]

Hi everybody. So I guess I’ll make my own little space here to chronical this noble journey in which I go from knowing just about nothing about tobacco OR farming to eventually making the first (and thus best ever) Czech snus. I shall save my subsequent conquering of the global market and merger with Swedish Match for a subsequent blog – first I have to learn to properly cure the stuff!

As I described elsewhere, this year was pretty helter-skelter as I decided to start a crop quite late in spring and had nowhere to put it except a greenhouse, where I transplanted a ton of vaguely named “Kentucky tobacco” seeds. The results weren’t bad at all, the leaves ended up relatively small and probably thinner than they’re supposed to be, but for the purposes of a learning batch, fantastic. Here's half of it:


Lots of drama around curing as I’ve tried to get my head around it. A bout of cold wet weather in early September rendered the barn useless and the oldest leaves rotten and nasty. Luckily I hadn’t taken the whole harvest in, so I started hanging newly picked leaves all over the house and pathologically purchasing and moving around hygrometers in search of an airy place that could be maintained at 25°C 65-75% RH without sunlight in September. The only place like that was under a fan in the bathroom, and since certain better halves would likely loudly object to 12kg of tobacco hanging in the bathroom, I put the leaves in cardboard boxes, since that apparently allows for a lower temperature, around 18°C.


So far so good! Flipping the boxes in the evening and fluffing the leaves in the morning is a lot more trouble but they are yellowing nicely. I know my son will probably remember the autumn that mama would always say, “don’t go in the bathroom, daddy’s in there fluffing his leaves”. But hey, I’ll endure whatever I must to get a good cure. I want to grow up to 200 plants of various types next year so I’ll have a lot of room for experimentation with snus recipes, and I certainly don’t want it all rotting or drying green next autumn because of lack of experience and ignorance of emergency remedies.

Once there’s only a little green left or when they develop some dark brown then I take them out of the cardboard boxes and hang them upstairs in the house where it’s always 19-21° and 54-59% RH. The pre-bathroom leaves that I cured all over the house are hanging there now, and I’m not sure how to read the results:



The stems get a little white mold, We’ve got about every possible color here, the black and the green being the most disconcerting. Will the green eventually go away? Is the black something insidious? Should only the nice brown and light brown lamina be used? And what to do about all the damn dirt that gets caught in the leaves?

Anyway, the end of this first chapter is that I rolled up one of the nicest looking leaves yesterday, knowing it would taste awful but I couldn’t resist. It actually tasted wonderful! Granted, I only smoke a few times a year nowadays so when I finally do I’m glad to have just about anything, but this was very different than anything commercial I’ve smoked in the last 20 years, it reminded me of the fresh tobacco I had at markets in Albania and Turkey. The tail end wasn’t as nice, there was some strange taste that I know from somewhere but can’t describe, not horrible but nothing you’d smoke intentionally.

Again, thanks to everybody’s help, I’m so glad to have this forum.

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

It looks like you have a lot of leaf to play with now. What's next? Do you have plans for a kiln?

I didn't see anything insidious or black in your photos, except maybe for one shriveled up leaf in the middle, but that just looks like a super dark green, rather than black, which would be safe, but probably not tasty, so I'm not sure what you're looking at.

 

[Oldfella]

Hi everybody. So I guess I’ll make my own little space here to chronical this noble journey in which I go from knowing just about nothing about tobacco OR farming to eventually making the first (and thus best ever) Czech snus. I shall save my subsequent conquering of the global market and merger with Swedish Match for a subsequent blog – first I have to learn to properly cure the stuff!

As I described elsewhere, this year was pretty helter-skelter as I decided to start a crop quite late in spring and had nowhere to put it except a greenhouse, where I transplanted a ton of vaguely named “Kentucky tobacco” seeds. The results weren’t bad at all, the leaves ended up relatively small and probably thinner than they’re supposed to be, but for the purposes of a learning batch, fantastic. Here's half of it:
View attachment 33660

Lots of drama around curing as I’ve tried to get my head around it. A bout of cold wet weather in early September rendered the barn useless and the oldest leaves rotten and nasty. Luckily I hadn’t taken the whole harvest in, so I started hanging newly picked leaves all over the house and pathologically purchasing and moving around hygrometers in search of an airy place that could be maintained at 25°C 65-75% RH without sunlight in September. The only place like that was under a fan in the bathroom, and since certain better halves would likely loudly object to 12kg of tobacco hanging in the bathroom, I put the leaves in cardboard boxes, since that apparently allows for a lower temperature, around 18°C.
View attachment 33661

So far so good! Flipping the boxes in the evening and fluffing the leaves in the morning is a lot more trouble but they are yellowing nicely. I know my son will probably remember the autumn that mama would always say, “don’t go in the bathroom, daddy’s in there fluffing his leaves”. But hey, I’ll endure whatever I must to get a good cure. I want to grow up to 200 plants of various types next year so I’ll have a lot of room for experimentation with snus recipes, and I certainly don’t want it all rotting or drying green next autumn because of lack of experience and ignorance of emergency remedies.

Once there’s only a little green left or when they develop some dark brown then I take them out of the cardboard boxes and hang them upstairs in the house where it’s always 19-21° and 54-59% RH. The pre-bathroom leaves that I cured all over the house are hanging there now, and I’m not sure how to read the results:
View attachment 33662
View attachment 33663

The stems get a little white mold, We’ve got about every possible color here, the black and the green being the most disconcerting. Will the green eventually go away? Is the black something insidious? Should only the nice brown and light brown lamina be used? And what to do about all the damn dirt that gets caught in the leaves?

Anyway, the end of this first chapter is that I rolled up one of the nicest looking leaves yesterday, knowing it would taste awful but I couldn’t resist. It actually tasted wonderful! Granted, I only smoke a few times a year nowadays so when I finally do I’m glad to have just about anything, but this was very different than anything commercial I’ve smoked in the last 20 years, it reminded me of the fresh tobacco I had at markets in Albania and Turkey. The tail end wasn’t as nice, there was some strange taste that I know from somewhere but can’t describe, not horrible but nothing you’d smoke intentionally.

Again, thanks to everybody’s help, I’m so glad to have this forum.

It looks like you had a good grow. It all looks good to me, a couple have cured green so I'd be inclined to leave them out of a nice blend. Good luck with the rest of the process and keep us posted.
Oldfella

 

[Roastbeast]

Thanks guys. Yeah the dark green look more black in rl. Will these dried green leaves eventually turn brown under any conditions or should I just throw them out?
I’d also really appreciate any tips on getting the dirt off the dry leaves or generally cleaning them.

 

[Roastbeast]

Do you have plans for a kiln?

As far as I know, kilning or aging isn’t necessary for snus making. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but I think once the stems are bone dry I can clean, powderize and store them. Is there any other step? ( @POGreen ?)

 

[POGreen]

I stalkharvest my plants after I got the sign , that the bottom leaves have changed color from green to yellow/brown , meaning that I hang the plants upside down out or inside.
This goes on for some 6-8 weeks , after that you have to let the leaves dry so you could work the leaves with a grinder or a food processor.
I think that you can try to grind the leaves you have but you will probably not get a good result since some of the leaves are green or some other color.
You can flue cure or air cure the leaves but I don't know how that is performed.

POGreen

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

Thanks guys. Yeah the dark green look more black in rl. Will these dried green leaves eventually turn brown under any conditions or should I just throw them out?
I’d also really appreciate any tips on getting the dirt off the dry leaves or generally cleaning them.

I have tried to make green leaf better a couple times. You can sometimes get the green to go away through kilning. However, it's questionable whether the quality will ever be as high as if it cured properly the first time. Mine was lousy to mediocre. I also have done via an air tight, high case, carotte. This worked better than kilning.

 

[POGreen]

I have tried to make green leaf better a couple times. You can sometimes get the green to go away through kilning. However, it's questionable whether the quality will ever be as high as if it cured properly the first time. Mine was lousy to mediocre. I also have done via an air tight, high case, carotte. This worked better than kilning.

I would suggest you to get rid of the green leaves , they will never turn brown.

 

[Roastbeast]

Ok advice taken. So for the first test batch of tobacco flour I’ve taken only non green bits. I’m a little concerned about molds being in there though, as there was some on the stems and I’m paranoid about the black mold... maybe it’s a dumb question but can splash some hydro peroxide on it before powderizing it? Or something else to “clean” it?

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

Ok advice taken. So for the first test batch of tobacco flour I’ve taken only non green bits. I’m a little concerned about molds being in there though, as there was some on the stems and I’m paranoid about the black mold... maybe it’s a dumb question but can splash some hydro peroxide on it before powderizing it? Or something else to “clean” it?

Black mold is three dimensional, growing on the leaf. You can verify its there because you should be able to at least wipe some onto a damp paper towel. If it's the leaf itself that is really dark, you won't be able to wipe any off.

I don't know how to kill mold other than to cook it. As far as I know, peroxide kills spores, but not vegetative growth.

Smell it. If you can smell mold, then it's mold. If you can't smell it, it might still be mold, but not of a type that will taste bad. The worst tasting, most fragrant, that I've had on tobacco is the green type. It's really obvious. I've had filamentous white mold that is less pungent, but obvious to smell, and faint to smoke. I've also had white which was more like icing sugar. It had no smell or taste. I smoke that tobacco because it's great.

I think Bob asserts that chewing mold can be toxic, so I'll reiterate that.

 

[deluxestogie]

Bob's assertion is that aflatoxin, which is produced by Aspergillus species (they come in many colors), is hepatotoxic--causes liver damage. Aflatoxin that is combusted is apparently not a significant risk. Aflatoxin that is absorbed from the mucous membranes of the mouth and throat is hazardous.

How do you know if the apparent mold is Aspergillus? You can't know, without laboratory examination. Moldy smelling leaf is not very enjoyable to smoke or taste. Suspicious "mold" that does not smell moldy can be smoked in a cigarette or cigar or pipe. But leaf that you will be bathing in your saliva--cigar wrapper, oral smokeless--is best avoided if it seems "moldy". Nasal smokeless? That's probably also a risk with "moldy" leaf. With "slightly moldy stems", I remove the stem with a few millimeters of surrounding lamina, then ignore the now-removed stem mold.

If you have a sufficient supply of nice tobacco available, it's easier to toss suspicious leaf.

Bob

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

Bob's assertion is that aflatoxin, which is produced by Aspergillus species (they come in many colors), is hepatotoxic--causes liver damage. Aflatoxin that is combusted is apparently not a significant risk. Aflatoxin that is absorbed from the mucous membranes of the mouth and throat is hazardous.

How do you know if the apparent mold is Aspergillus? You can't know, without laboratory examination. Moldy smelling leaf is not very enjoyable to smoke or taste. Suspicious "mold" that does not smell moldy can be smoked in a cigarette or cigar or pipe. But leaf that you will be bathing in your saliva--cigar wrapper, oral smokeless--is best avoided if it seems "moldy". Nasal smokeless? That's probably also a risk with "moldy" leaf. With "slightly moldy stems", I remove the stem with a few millimeters of surrounding lamina, then ignore the now-removed stem mold.

If you have a sufficient supply of nice tobacco available, it's easier to toss suspicious leaf.

Bob

Question.
If the tobacco was cooked, and the Aspergillus killed, is it correct to say the aflatoxin is possibly still present?

 

[deluxestogie]

Heating and cooking under pressure can destroy nearly 70% of aflatoxin in rice compared to under atmospheric pressure only 50% destroyed. Dry and oil roastings can reduce about 50-70% of aflatoxin B1. We could show that only about 10% of total 1242 ppb of aflatoxin B. decreased in naturally contaminated peanut by heating at up to 100°C. Since aflatoxin resists to higher temperature up to 260°C...

Mycotoxin prevention and control in foodgrains - Prevention and control of mycotoxins

www.fao.org

Bob

 

[Knucklehead]

I’d also really appreciate any tips on getting the dirt off the dry leaves or generally cleaning them.

Once the leaf is cured and dry the dirt usually will just fall off while manipulating the tobacco for processing and just give it a shake. If not, you could try a horse hair or similar light bristle brush or use your hands. To remove aphids or dirt from my plants I have in the past washed the leaves immediately after harvest before the leaf becomes limp. Bob has washed leaves while still on the plant but my plants were too far from a water source so I plucked off the leaf and carried it straight home to gently wash it off with my hands and a hose without a nozzle. I would not try to wash brown, cured leaf as you will be washing off nicotine and flavor. I saw no loss of strength or flavor after washing fresh green leaf. I suspect the still living green leaf had time to do a little repair work to itself but that’s just speculation.

edit: if it’s just dirt it won’t hurt to smoke a little dirt. I cant taste it. Dead aphids on the other hand are nasty and taste awful. I hate aphids.

 

[Oldfella]

Ok advice taken. So for the first test batch of tobacco flour I’ve taken only non green bits. I’m a little concerned about molds being in there though, as there was some on the stems and I’m paranoid about the black mold... maybe it’s a dumb question but can splash some hydro peroxide on it before powderizing it? Or something else to “clean” it?

To me that's nice looking tobacco. See
Post- 09
I'd be happy to smoke it, note the emphasis on SMOKE.
If I could suggest a small experiment,
Bring some to medium - high case.
Seal it in a see through container.
Store in a warm place and check daily. Be sure to keep a log of written notes, and don't open the container. Other than keeping it out of the sun light, that's about it. Any mold will show up in 2-3 days.

 

[Roastbeast]

You guys are amazing, one question here is always worth an hours' searching around the net.
Experiment #000001 is moving right along, I think we're good as far as mold is concerned, nobody can see or smell anything on the shredded batches at least, so I'll try my luck and make my first test snus out of it. I tried smoking a little more and the taste has already moved from the "fresh market" taste I described above to kind of a cheap-cigar one. No abnormal tastes. I wonder what that strange tail on the first taste test was... maybe too yellow still.
The rest of the cure is going pretty well and we're getting slow but steady yellow in the boxes, a little limpy dark rotten-looking bits here and there but not much (which was the main problem in the September barn-curing-on-the-stalk attempt). When I start seeing dark brown in the boxes and worrying about mold then I bring them up to the attic to 17-20°C / 55-62% and that has been a mixed bag - lots of variation in leaves of similar size hanging under the same conditions as you can see in the pic - most curing nicely but some drying green, others turning reddish-black with green spots and yet others getting frustratingly close to brown perfection and then never losing a smattering of tiny green spots.
I did end up stringing one line up in the bathroom out of the box, though - 19°C and maintainable at 64-72% - and that is color curing very nicely indeed.