Bursa - Yield?

[skychaser]

He's right, do it that way. Because Turkish farmers don't need additional competitors.

I grow for primarily for seeds and not for leaf, so I think the Turkish farmers have little to worry about. Too bad we can't sit down together and smoke some of each in a side by side comparison. You might be surprised by the quality of my leaf.

If I lived on a rocky hill side with poor soil and no way to water my plants, (like so many or the photos I have seen of Tobacco growing in Turkey) then I would have no choice but to farm in the traditional ways. When my grandpa first farmed this land, he farmed with a horse and prayed for rain, or hauled water to his crops in barrels. I have a JD tractor and an irrigation system. I think my grandpa would have given his left nut to have what I have.

 

[BarG]

The 2' plant and 3' row spacing produced a better plant and I think better tasting leaf vs the 1' plant and 18" row spacing. 2 consecutive years of growing. The closer spacing seemed to attract aphids for the first time. I had never had to deal with the aphids prior. They concentrated on the bursa and adjoining row of ottoman which also produced less grown closer together. I threw a lot of aphid damaged leaf a way.

 

[BarG]

I grow for primarily for seeds and not for leaf, so I think the Turkish farmers have little to worry about. Too bad we can't sit down together and smoke some of each in a side by side comparison. You might be surprised by the quality of my leaf.

I think my grandpa would have given his left nut to have what I have.

I can't think of anything that would be worth my left or right nut!
Except a wheelbarrow would be nice for toten em!

 

[istanbulin]

Those spacings are traditional not few consecutive years but more than centuries, also they're proofed with scientific researches so I don't see any benefit on discussing this issue with anybody here. But please do not forget that they were determined for particular varieties or regions in Turkey, not for other parts of the World.

Those days, without watering systems and tractors were in the past, tobacco farmers benefit every opportunity nowadays (but intentionally limited). Everybody (scientifically or experimentally) are agreed that Oriental tobacco cultivation shouldn't be as intensive as other types (i.e. Burley), it's contrary to its nature. Among all crops grown in Turkey the most "rude" cultivation is applied to Oriental tobaccos. In a country where huge farmers use automatic controlled harvesting (or other type of) machines (without a driver/satellite controlled systems), you be sure that any other farmer may reach the best facility or equipment. Photos are nothing for people that don't know what to see.

Do whatever you want. If you like the taste of the smaller leaves grow it that way and enjoy, if you like the taste of that big leaves grow them bigger and enjoy. It's just up to your palate. You may like your home grown leaf but it's not rational to compare it's "quality" with the professionally/commercially grown.
A lot of people grew Burley in this forum, when they compare it with the commercial one they may like it more (or not) but it's not reasonable to compare it. I can say my TN90 Burleys, two years ago, were better than the X companies leaves but this's only to me, not rational, when I look at the standarts of the Burley leaf my leaf may be the worst quality. Although I liked how my TN90s smoked I can't say it's a good quality, because it'd be nonsensical, only a subjective justice.

If you're not able to apply/know related standarts, testing techniques and expertness you can't say "my leaf is good quality", you can only say "I like it" and may describe the taste. I'm sorry but this is the view of science.

 

[BarG]

Those spacings are traditional not few consecutive years but more than centuries, also they're proofed with scientific researches so I don't see any benefit on discussing this issue with anybody here. But please do not forget that they were determined for particular varieties or regions in Turkey, not for other parts of the World.

Those days, without watering systems and tractors were in the past, tobacco farmers benefit every opportunity nowadays (but intentionally limited). Everybody (scientifically or experimentally) are agreed that Oriental tobacco cultivation shouldn't be as intensive as other types (i.e. Burley), it's contrary to its nature. Among all crops grown in Turkey the most "rude" cultivation is applied to Oriental tobaccos. In a country where huge farmers use automatic controlled harvesting (or other type of) machines (without a driver/satellite controlled systems), you be sure that any other farmer may reach the best facility or equipment. Photos are nothing for people that don't know what to see.

Do whatever you want. If you like the taste of the smaller leaves grow it that way and enjoy, if you like the taste of that big leaves grow them bigger and enjoy. It's just up to your palate. You may like your home grown leaf but it's not rational to compare it's "quality" with the professionally/commercially grown.
A lot of people grew Burley in this forum, when they compare it with the commercial one they may like it more (or not) but it's not reasonable to compare it. I can say my TN90 Burleys, two years ago, were better than the X companies leaves but this's only to me, not rational, when I look at the standarts of the Burley leaf my leaf may be the worst quality. Although I liked how my TN90s smoked I can't say it's a good quality, because it'd be nonsensical, only a subjective justice.

If you're not able to apply/know related standarts, testing techniques and expertness you can't say "my leaf is good quality", you can only say "I like it" and may describe the taste. I'm sorry but this is the view of science.

A view that I find a bit disturbing with all due respect istanbulin.
What people like determines market as well as the fact that all to many scientific facts have a definite history of being rewritten due to new discoverys, In my opinion the debate is not over . One region can produce a superior tobacco over another , but adaptation has a way of prevailing.

Edit: I hope the turkish market can handle it.

What came first: The scientist or the farmer.

 

[istanbulin]

You're absolutely right about the people's influence on market, it already changed the blends after WWII and made the American Blends popular all around the World (actually it was more political and economic than people's choices) but it didn't change the present standarts on Oriental tobaccos. I think it's very hard for people to affect any type of tobacco standarts because most of the people don't know what they're smoking. Of course, debate is not over. If it was, humankind wouldn't achieve todays developments. Adaptation is a different issue, when the tobacco plant arrived this region it was same as where it came from but it changed due to adaptation (and etc.) and named as Oriental. If todays Orientals are taken to somewhere in the World and adopted there, they may be called different and new standarts may be set. It didn't happen yet so I'm talking about "today".

 

[BarG]

Oh . But if if it was so simple. The facts are that different regions prefer different qualitys. How are such qualitys judged and by whom is the question!
Of course hollywood sensationalized American tobacco by having all the German and Russian soldiers wanting American homegrown.

 

[Jitterbugdude]

And on a related topic.... There are people that fertilize the hell out of their tobacco every year without a soil test. Constantly adding Nitrogen will increase the nicotince level of your leaf. I'm a nicotine lightweight so I do not fertilize unless my soil nitrogen levels drops below a certain point. If you like high nicotine tobacco than by all means fertilize like all get out. This is what I find so interesting about tobacco. I used to grow my Turkish about 30 inches apart. The leaves were huge. After Emre posted the traditional spacing of Turkish plants I tried that and I like my Turkish much better now.. Experemint and do what gives you what you like!

 

[Knucklehead]

I think we are all correct. We are hobby growers and don't have to compete with one another for market share. The most important point here is that every one's tastes are different and if you like what you produce by your methods then that is a wonderful thing. Turkey has a world wide reputation for the quality of it's leaf that has withstood the test of time. But these are not hobby growers who are growing for themselves. They are farmers competing for a share of the world market and they have dominated that market for possibly centuries. The market demand dictates the method of cultivation. Their customers demand small aromatic leaf. Their methods work for the results they hope to attain. As hobby growers, our mission is different. All we have to do is produce a leaf that each individual likes for himself. We like big harvests. We don't have buyers telling us what they expect out of our leaf, we only have to please ourselves.

If I had to offer any advise here, it would be to space some plants close in the traditional manner, and space some far apart for greater yield. Then compare the two products yourself. Only you can decide for yourself what you like the best. Some may even prefer a heavier harvest even if the taste is slightly compromised (I'm not saying it is, just an example). In that case it's a trade off, more leaf that is "good enough" as opposed to less leaf that is higher quality. Your available space is another factor. You can squeeze in a ton of Orientals into a small space. Experiment, play around with it, have some fun, make it interesting. Find what works for you.

 

[BarG]

And on a related topic.... There are people that fertilize the hell out of their tobacco every year without a soil test. Constantly adding Nitrogen will increase the nicotince level of your leaf. I'm a nicotine lightweight so I do not fertilize unless my soil nitrogen levels drops below a certain point. If you like high nicotine tobacco than by all means fertilize like all get out. This is what I find so interesting about tobacco. I used to grow my Turkish about 30 inches apart. The leaves were huge. After Emre posted the traditional spacing of Turkish plants I tried that and I like my Turkish much better now.. Experemint and do what gives you what you like!

Exactly! See what happens and enjoy it without preconceptions. Try something new.

On Topic: my yield was greater with larger plant spacing and to my taste , thats a matter of taste.

 

[deluxestogie]

The yield from Oriental varieties will always be greater if you use wide spacing. Bursa, Samsun, Bafra and Trebzon seem to be happier with wider spacing, though the leaf seems to sacrifice some of its varietal aroma, and be more potent than one might expect. I think the Basma types, like Xanthi, Smyrna, Izmir, produce rather bland and uninteresting (large) leaf when widely space, while with closer spacing, the subtle "Turkish" aromas become more noticeable in the smaller leaves.

I believe that the attempts at commercial production of Turkish tobaccos in the US repeatedly failed because they used wide spacing and aggressive fertilization. (The "triumph" of American agricultural knowhow over the crude practices of Turkish peasants.) The result was a high yield of leaf that lacked the qualities that the cigarette companies sought in Turkish tobacco.

None of us is "big tobacco." We can want whatever we want. I would suggest that if you want to sample the spectrum of what you can get from Oriental tobaccos, do experiment with close and wide spacing. The comparisons are easy enough.

I am ecstatic about my Prilep at 12", and thrilled with Xanthi at 9". You really do get different tobacco from different spacing.

Bob

 

[BarG]

Cool post BOB.

 

[Knucklehead]

Here's a "What if". What if you planted half your Izmir crop closely spaced, and the other half widely spaced, then blend all the leaf together? You could end up with a large harvest that had great flavor.

 

[forumdotabaco]

hello this something that interests me , orientals. OK based in what read about it I believe if we want to have orientals like the ones made in Greece and turkey, our effort must be put in the in the absence of.
by this I meant:
in the absence of water
in the absence of care
in the absence of fertilization

its all about their sandy soils and in the absence of water, that combination will give you a small and hight sugar content leaf, now about the spacing, I guess is more about the plant shape, columnar shaped plants need less spacing and also give you less production, but you can compensate that because you can plant 2 in 1 sqm.

 

[Knucklehead]

hello this something that interests me , orientals. OK based in what read about it I believe if we want to have orientals like the ones made in Greece and turkey, our effort must be put in the in the absence of.
by this I meant:
in the absence of water
in the absence of care
in the absence of fertilization

its all about their sandy soils and in the absence of water, that combination will give you a small and hight sugar content leaf, now about the spacing, I guess is more about the plant shape, columnar shaped plants need less spacing and also give you less production, but you can compensate that because you can plant 2 in 1 sqm.

Excellent points.

 

[BarG]

Here's a "What if". What if you planted half your Izmir crop closely spaced, and the other half widely spaced, then blend all the leaf together? You could end up with a large harvest that had great flavor.

My bursa home grown usualy don't last that long. is there a way to compare the differences with present saved crops. I have 2 years.

 

[Knucklehead]

I was just using Izmir as an example. Say you have 100 Bursa seedlings this year. Plant 50 of them close, and the other 50 with wide spacing. Then blend the leaf from those 100 Bursa plants together after curing. 50 would have high yield, 50 would have the traditional flavor, and the blend might have the best of both.

It's just a "what if" like thinking out loud.

 

[leverhead]

I've grown Ottoman and BS Samsun at 18" and 8" plant spacings, I prefer and use less weight of the leaf from the closer spacing. Smaller leaves are more work, but not allot and I only use less than 5 lbs a year. The only real complaint I have about traditional spacing is the row spacing. I think my soil is too good, there was little space left for me.

 

[istanbulin]

I believe that the attempts at commercial production of Turkish tobaccos in the US repeatedly failed because they used wide spacing and aggressive fertilization. (The "triumph" of American agricultural knowhow over the crude practices of Turkish peasants.) The result was a high yield of leaf that lacked the qualities that the cigarette companies sought in Turkish tobacco.

Although there were some crude attempts in CA on early 20th century, I could't find too much attempt for growing Oriental tobacco in the US (oh, there was a newspaper clipping which I found almost a year ago or more). Although the booklet which was published by "Agricultural Experiment Station; Berkeley, Cal." in 1923 mentions about some practices (i.e. on irrigation : "In occasional cases, irrigation may become necessary, though it is to be avoided if possible"), it does not mentions about spacings and usage of artificial fertilizers. I don't know if there're more reported attempts on this issue.

Let's say this explicitly, American agricultural knowhow (?) failed and was beaten by traditional agricultural practices of Turkish peasants on growing Oriental tobacco.

 

[Knucklehead]

Let's say this explicitly, American agricultural knowhow (?) failed and was beaten by traditional agricultural practices of Turkish peasants on growing Oriental tobacco.

Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day.