Growing cigar leaf in central Italy: @UmbriaFarmer

[deluxestogie]

I assume that vapour proof bags inhibit natural aging

They are not vacuum sealed. There is plenty of air inside the bag. I can only speak to my 17 years of experience, and my lack of an analytical laboratory to adequately quantify any of this. My qualitative assessment has been that this method works well for me. Prior to the HTGT forum and subsequently the FTT forum, just about the only information available to home tobacco growers related to commercial-scale handling of tobacco in a highly segmented chain between grower and a final product.

shouldn't be embarrassed to admit to something not working

Often, I find that clearly describing failed methods can be more valuable than descriptions of happy success.

Bob

 

[bohdan.zaremba]

There's a number of reasons why a person would choose to place their tobacco in a bag and a number of times when they'd do so. Me? I'm aiming to avoid using plastic bags. I'm choosing to use plastic boxes instead. Well, I might use some cardboard boxes too but this is for long term storage in low case. Long term storage should always be in low case to avoid mold. So the container really doesn't matter for me as long as it keeps dust and bugs out nor contribute off flavors/aromas to the tobacco. I do sniff out the plastic boxes to make sure they aren't off gassing anything noticeable. I'll bring the tobacco up to the desired case when I go to make the tobacco into cigars or pipe tobacco. A person has to decide what will work best with what is available to them for what purpose they have at hand.
Aging is a concern for all tobacco except perhaps for flue cured tobacco. Even after kilning for 8weeks, tobacco can continue to change as it ages but it becomes a process of diminishing returns. This is a hobby and there's no one right way to do things. Its all up to what's important to you for what you want to do with the tobacco. Either it works for you or it doesn't. That's why we are here learning together what works for each other and what didn't. BTW: a person shouldn't be embarrassed to admit to something not working. Not all experiments work out. We aren't here to brag. (though sometimes we might be trying to have fun)

The reason I asked is because I was considering storing my air cured tobacco in airtight plastic boxes to maintain low case. My basement is quite dry during the summer, and even drier in the winter, so maintaining a low case will be a challenge. I was considering tossing my tobacco into an airtight plastic box with some Boveda packs, but I've also read that lack of air circulation can slow down or inhibit the natural aging process. Since Bob places his wrappers and binders into a vapour proof bag to maintain case (I assume that if it's vapour proof and maintains case well, it's also fairly airtight), I wanted to know if he does this with tobacco that is already aged to his satisfaction, or if (in his experience) even freshly-cured tobacco will age in a poly-nylon bag.

 

[deluxestogie]

I've also read that lack of air circulation can slow down or inhibit the natural aging process.

Tobacco ages quite well in tightly packed bales.

I color-cure my tobacco. After color-curing, it can go into a kiln for 6-8 weeks, to accelerate aging, or it can just go into the bag directly, and sit for several years to age.

Bob

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

Bob, I'm noticing the barrel kiln aromas are changing now, the intensely fruity compounds are rapidly diminishing now but I'm at a loss to describe the new smells. Maybe a bit woody, possibly a fresh bready, hard to say really. Are there distinct phases of fermentation? How does one decide when to take them out for grading and ageing?

 

[deluxestogie]

I've never attempted to categorize phases of fermentation. There are multiple biochemical processes occurring simultaneously, in differing proportions that, I'm sure, overlap and vary in their reaction rates from one tobacco variety to another, as well as from one crop to another. My lazy approach is to kiln for about 8 weeks, then store the leaf.

Bob

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

I've never attempted to categorize phases of fermentation. There are multiple biochemical processes occurring simultaneously, in differing proportions that, I'm sure, overlap and vary in their reaction rates from one tobacco variety to another, as well as from one crop to another. My lazy approach is to kiln for about 8 weeks, then store the leaf.

Bob

And I'm guessing then that you've found going beyond 8 weeks doesn't yield much improvement?

 

[deluxestogie]

Probably, four weeks of continuous kilning at ideal conditions is sufficient for all the rapid, early enzymatic actions. Even at these elevated temperatures, the process slows significantly after that. My choice to extend the time to eight weeks was a simple matter of deciding not to worry if the water ran out on occasion, or if my electric power went out following a storm. Four weeks is probably enough. Eight weeks gives me peace of mind. The latter is more important to me. As long as the temps don't go above 130°F, there is no harm in keeping the leaf in the kiln too long, other than the cost of wasted electricity.

The traditional, pre-industrial (pre-electricity) fermentation method of pilones likely exposes all the leaf—only the central portion of the pilon, at any given build of the pilon—to less time at elevated temperatures than 4 weeks in a controlled kiln.

Bob

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

Probably, four weeks of continuous kilning at ideal conditions is sufficient for all the rapid, early enzymatic actions. Even at these elevated temperatures, the process slows significantly after that. My choice to extend the time to eight weeks was a simple matter of deciding not to worry if the water ran out on occasion, or if my electric power went out following a storm. Four weeks is probably enough. Eight weeks gives me peace of mind. The latter is more important to me. As long as the temps don't go above 130°F, there is no harm in keeping the leaf in the kiln too long, other than the cost of wasted electricity.

The traditional, pre-industrial (pre-electricity) fermentation method of pilones likely exposes all the leaf—only the central portion of the pilon, at any given build of the pilon—to less time at elevated temperatures than 4 weeks in a controlled kiln.

Bob

Thanks Bob. Much obliged.

 

[bohdan.zaremba]

Tobacco ages quite well in tightly packed bales.

I color-cure my tobacco. After color-curing, it can go into a kiln for 6-8 weeks, to accelerate aging, or it can just go into the bag directly, and sit for several years to age.

Bob

For cigar varieties, do they need to rest for some time after curing, or can they go immediately into the kiln? You mentioned in your book that you leave Corojo and Criollo in the shed for a year before putting it in a kiln, but I am not sure if you find that rest period necessary, or if it's a matter of preference/convenience

 

[deluxestogie]

you leave Corojo and Criollo in the shed for a year before putting it in a kiln

My 80+ year old shed has been an accidental bonus for use as a tobacco curing shed. Its vertical wall planks have slight gaps between them, probably from shrinkage over the decades since it was built. Its metal roof is not insulated. So there is usually good air circulation. Whenever the sun shines on the roof, it heats the interior of the shed, and thereby drops the RH (relative humidity), cycling daily.

I used to strip the leaf, and bring it indoors in late November—pretty much when the commercial tobacco growers strip and bale their tobacco in Virginia and neighboring states. But that schedule is based on the marketing schedule of tobacco buyers. Out of laziness, I gradually discovered that leaving the leaf in the shed until the following summer, when I need the space cleared for the new crop, simply gives the aging process a significant head start. I do that will all my tobacco varieties. It works for me, in my old shed, in my microclimate.

Bob

 

[bohdan.zaremba]

Thanks, seems I was under a false impression that I need to wait a year before starting to ferment. Seems it's time to build a kiln!

Just to double check: the wait time before kilning is optional, it may help depending on environment conditions. But the wait time after fermenting is mandatory, and its duration is determined by the variety of tobacco?

 

[deluxestogie]

Build a kiln that is larger than you think you will need.

White-stem burley varieties need several weeks more curing after they have browned. Because of the trickery of their chlorophyll defect, they brown before the lamina has fully cured.

You don't need to wait to kiln the leaf, once it is fully color-cured. After fermenting, resting the leaf will show significant changes during the first few weeks. But it continues to change for several years. The wait is entirely optional, depending on your preferences. I suggest sampling the leaf right out of the kiln, then at intervals of several weeks, to see when your varieties are ready.

Bob

 

[bohdan.zaremba]

Build a kiln that is larger than you think you will need.

White-stem burley varieties need several weeks more curing after they have browned. Because of the trickery of their chlorophyll defect, they brown before the lamina has fully cured.

You don't need to wait to kiln the leaf, once it is fully color-cured. After fermenting, resting the leaf will show significant changes during the first few weeks. But it continues to change for several years. The wait is entirely optional, depending on your preferences. I suggest sampling the leaf right out of the kiln, then at intervals of several weeks, to see when your varieties are ready.

Bob

Thanks Bob, I appreciate the help

 

[mbatini]

So it turns out it's a variety cultivated here since the 1500s but only up north in the Veneto region. It seems to be quite widely grown and there are several brands of cigars available of just straight up nostrano of blended with Leaf from other countries. My search for seed has begun...

Hi UmbriaFarmer, I live in Terni. In 2021 I tried my path to growing tobacco and I am now enjoing my own cigars and my own tobacco... but I'm getting short on reserve So I am thinking to go again. I have the Nostrano del Brenta seeds I gathered from a cimbro member that was so kind to mail me a couple. Then I got the blossoms from my own plants and now I have a good reserve to use again. Nice to meet someone interested in this. Have a good day. Mauro

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

Hi UmbriaFarmer, I live in Terni. In 2021 I tried my path to growing tobacco and I am now enjoing my own cigars and my own tobacco... but I'm getting short on reserve So I am thinking to go again. I have the Nostrano del Brenta seeds I gathered from a cimbro member that was so kind to mail me a couple. Then I got the blossoms from my own plants and now I have a good reserve to use again. Nice to meet someone interested in this. Have a good day. Mauro

Buonasera Mauro,
Ho tanti semi di Criollo, provinente da Cuba se vuoi scambiare semi? La quinta varietà che vorrei coltivare anno prossimo è Nostrano del Brenta ma ancora non sono riuscito a trovarli...

[Good evening, Mauro,
I have plenty of Criollo seeds from Cuba—would you like to swap? The fifth variety I’d like to grow next year is Nostrano del Brenta, but I haven't managed to find any yet...]

 

[mbatini]

First of all I have to excuse with all the member and especially with the GrandMaster @deluxestogie and Alpine for my vanishing. Nice to see you all again.
@UmbriaFarmer I have those seeds and actually thinking to try on the field next season with a couple of varieties I never used (Moonlight, Connecticut). Here is my seeds inventory: if you want some seeds just let me know.

 

[mbatini]

About the Nostrano del Brenta: the variety I have seeds (from @Alpine) is the wide leaf named Avanone. The much more (they say) quality one is Cucchetto, but actually my info give it as estinguished because of low crop and smaller leaf (commercial approach I think).

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

About the Nostrano del Brenta: the variety I have seeds (from @Alpine) is the wide leaf named Avanone. The much more (they say) quality one is Cucchetto, but actually my info give it as estinguished because of low crop and smaller leaf (commercial approach I think).

A shame you hadn't posted 3 days ago! I have just arranged for a friend of mine in the US to send me piloto Cubano, Vuelta Abajo, and H2k! Those are 3 of the 5 varieties I am going to grow next year...but I would LOVE a few seeds of Nostrano and corojo as those are the only seeds I haven't secured yet. I see you have criollo so I imagine you don't need any of mine? Anyway you are welcome to some if you want new stock, as they are from this years harvest.