Thoughts on Pre Alkalizing snus Before cook.

[HappyHawaiian]

Anyone have any thoughts on what's the difference between alkalizing snus before the cook or after the cook?

I stumbled across a Reddit post where the person said he always alkalizes his snus before pasturizing. Most recipes in the snuff snus and chew book say to alkalize after cooking. But there are a couple that do it before.

I think it would be simpler and save time to mix salt and alkalizer in the water, mix it with the tobacco flour and cook it. One recipe even says to add the humectant into the water prior to cook.

Is there a downside to that? There's so many recipes in that book it's quite overwhelming. But I like the idea of mixing everything together prior to cooking, not sure if that's bad or not. I'm not sure if that would change the chemical reaction or not.

 

[johnny108]

There shouldn’t be any reason you can’t add alkali before the first cook.
Possibly, from a flavor development perspective, it might be preferable.
Alkali conditions during cooking of foods favors Maillard reactions, creating more melanoidin flavor compounds, which give the deeper flavor toast has, when compared to untoasted bread.
Sources:

An Introduction to the Maillard Reaction

If you plan on cooking tonight, chances are you'll be using the Maillard reaction to transform your raw ingredients into a better sensory experience.

www.seriouseats.com

Real French Onion Dip Recipe

A creamy dip with an intensely onion flavored base. A splash of lemon juice adds some brightness while a bit of Worcestershire sauce gives it a meaty, umami-full backbone.

www.seriouseats.com

This goes for the alkali alone. Humectant additions, I don’t think should be cooked.
Alkali conditions and some common humectants (glycerine, for example), when heated, can form noxious compounds like acrolein. Not only do these taste really, really bad- they are toxic, lachrymatory (tear gas effect), and possibly carcinogenic.

Personally, I add everything in before I cook, and I don’t use humectants.

 

[loui loui]

Anyone have any thoughts on what's the difference between alkalizing snus before the cook or after the cook?

I stumbled across a Reddit post where the person said he always alkalizes his snus before pasturizing. Most recipes in the snuff snus and chew book say to alkalize after cooking. But there are a couple that do it before.

I think it would be simpler and save time to mix salt and alkalizer in the water, mix it with the tobacco flour and cook it. One recipe even says to add the humectant into the water prior to cook.

Is there a downside to that? There's so many recipes in that book it's quite overwhelming. But I like the idea of mixing everything together prior to cooking, not sure if that's bad or not. I'm not sure if that would change the chemical reaction or not.

I have read that it stinks if you add it prior to cooking. It stinks a bit if you add it after too so I do it outside.

 

[HappyHawaiian]

Personally, I add everything in before I cook, and I don’t use humectants.

Wow, those links on the Maillard reaction were definitely eye opening. I see from the French onion link that increasing PH can shorten cooking time.

Since you add the alkalizer precook, did you shorten your cooking time?

I'm using the snusathome method in my instant pot, so I cook the snus at high pressure for 3 hours, would I need to shorten that time if I pre alkalize it? I agree, I wouldn't want to add the humectant pre cook because I don't know what chemical reactions that might cause with the heat.

I'm going to try pre alkalizing on my next batch today, just wondering if I should shorten the cooking time or not.

 

[HappyHawaiian]

I have read that it stinks if you add it prior to cooking. It stinks a bit if you add it after too so I do it outside.

Yeah, I just made my first batch yesterday, 70% Virginia and 30% Burley. After pulling it out of the instant pot, with no alkalizer, it stank pretty bad. After adding the alkalizer the smell didn't change, the same stink. Hard to describe the smell, kinda like overcooked carrots maybe. I'm going to try going 70% Burley and 30% Virginia next to see if the stink is any different. It's my first cook so no clue what it's supposed to smell like, but I know it doesn't smell anywhere near General Loose, which I'm trying to make.

 

[HappyHawaiian]

There shouldn’t be any reason you can’t add alkali before the first cook.

Now that I think about it, I'm betting you don't shorten cooking time because the cooking process is intended to kill any bacteria, pasteurization. So the cooking time should remain the same because the time needed to kill bacteria wouldn't change. Right?

I'm no chemist, but I do make home made soap, and I've made yogurt, so I kinda understand a little about chemical reactions and stuff. Understand to the point that they happen, but not a deep understanding of it enough to manipulate it to my benefit and not make mustard gas by accident.

 

[johnny108]

I don’t shorten my time- I use a slow cooker on low for 24 hours.
I try to copy the Swedish method since it cuts down on the nitrosamines produced.
I should probably cook it longer for a deeper flavor, but I’m happy with what I have using a straight dark air leaf. I might try for a dark air/burley blend after this year.

Edit: yup- pasteurization is definitely a factor. You don’t want nitrosamines, or mold.

 

[HappyHawaiian]

I don’t shorten my time- I use a slow cooker on low for 24 hours.
I try to copy the Swedish method since it cuts down on the nitrosamines produced.
I should probably cook it longer for a deeper flavor, but I’m happy with what I have using a straight dark air leaf. I might try for a dark air/burley blend after this year.

Edit: yup- pasteurization is definitely a factor. You don’t want nitrosamines, or mold.

Thanks, yeah, I want to cut down on the cancer causing things too, I'll look into the slow cooker method for the future. I have read that air cured is better for reducing carcinogens. I thought about dark air leaf but read they were higher in nicotine.

I'm a lightweight when it comes to nicotine content. General Loose is 8 mg/g. I've tried Thunder snus which is higher and I couldn't handle it.

Is your snus really strong, nicotine wise? What percentage of alkalizer do you use? I don't want to go over 8 mg/g of nicotine but also have no way of knowing how strong my snus is, other than trying it and see if I die or not.

 

[johnny108]

My snus-processed chewing tobacco (looks more like Copenhagen) is very strong.
I use 8.5 grams of sodium carbonate per 100 grams of tobacco.
It is pretty much the upper limit for alkali in commercial snus.
My tolerance for nicotine got really high, really fast, thanks to a massive rustica crop I did last year.

 

[HappyHawaiian]

My snus-processed chewing tobacco (looks more like Copenhagen) is very strong.
I use 8.5 grams of sodium carbonate per 100 grams of tobacco.
It is pretty much the upper limit for alkali in commercial snus.
My tolerance for nicotine got really high, really fast, thanks to a massive rustica crop I did last year.

Yikes!! That's Superman snus!!

 

[loui loui]

Also the nicotine uptake increase the more alcaline it is.

 

[HappyHawaiian]

I just made a batch of pre alkalized snus. It was easier for sure. I'll compare it to my other batch that was post alkalized and if there's no difference I'm sticking with the pre alkalized. I'll wait a bit for them to settle down before trying them though.

 

[johnny108]

The main difference I’ve noticed between alkalized and untreated tobacco is the speed the nicotine hits you.
A “rush” like feeling at the start with untreated tobacco giving the level of nicotine much slower, and longer lasting, often without the spike in blood pressure and dizziness that can occur when you take too big of a dip.

Back when I had a lower tolerance:

Alkalizing commercial tobacco

I use Al Capone cigarillos as chewing tobacco, and it can be pretty strong (chew it after having it in for an hour and it can make you sweat, and still has its flavor). I was however, wondering, if a half or quarter of a cigarillo would work, if the nicotine was more available…. I removed the...

fairtradetobacco.com

 

[HappyHawaiian]

The main difference I’ve noticed between alkalized and untreated tobacco is the speed the nicotine hits you.
A “rush” like feeling at the start with untreated tobacco giving the level of nicotine much slower, and longer lasting, often without the spike in blood pressure and dizziness that can occur when you take too big of a dip.

Back when I had a lower tolerance:

Alkalizing commercial tobacco

I use Al Capone cigarillos as chewing tobacco, and it can be pretty strong (chew it after having it in for an hour and it can make you sweat, and still has its flavor). I was however, wondering, if a half or quarter of a cigarillo would work, if the nicotine was more available…. I removed the...

fairtradetobacco.com

Thanks Johnny. That's good to know. I'm a lightweight when it comes to nicotine. My first batch I made with 4% alkalizer. I dropped it down to 2.3% for my second batch. I read somewhere that Swedish Match uses 2 to 2.3% alkalizer in their snus, and I use General Loose, so want to try and match that strength.

Of course the nicotine content of the leaves makes a big difference but I have no idea what leaves and percentages are in General Loose.

 

[HappyHawaiian]

Bingo! Just tried my pre alkalized snus and it's great. I didn't die! I had no idea I could make my own snus, till now. Now I know I can successfully make it, that is awesome!! Now I can tweak and adjust to make it perfect for me. I'm stoked! I'm very happy with how the pre alkalized turned out. Haven't tried my post alkalized yet, it's still resting in the fridge. I'm sure it will be ok.

 

[HappyHawaiian]

Oh my, on second thought. When I first tried my snus, I took a small pinch and it was fine. I just took a normal sized pinch and oh man that stuff is strong. I had to spit it out. And I only alkalized it at 2.3%. 50/50 Burley/Virginia. It could be because I only made it a couple days ago, but it was pre alkalized before cooking so I figured it didn't need 2 weeks to settle. I don't know.

I might make another not alkalized batch and mix it with what I've already made. I could take very small pinches I guess. I really got to find a way to make it weaker cause I can't handle the room spinning effect. Not my kinda ride. And I been dipping Copenhagen snuff, Longhorn loose, and General loose for 40 years with no issue. This stuff I made is nuts, still waiting for my heart to stop pounding.

I did put a tablespoon of licorice root and 5 drops of Bergamot food grade essential oil into about 100 grams of snus (tobacco weight before water). Not sure if I just had a reaction to the additives or what but it kinda felt like I was gonna have a heart attack.

Hopefully it just has to settle for two weeks. Besides not alkalizing it, because that's what I'm going to do, let me know if you have any other suggestions to make it weaker.

*** I just read that licorice root increases blood pressure, so maybe that was the issue. I didn't swallow though and I only had the dip in my mouth for a few minutes.*** Definitely not using that licorice powder again, ever. If that was the problem. I'm actually seriously considering quitting right now, not to be a wuss but that was kinda scary.

 

[johnny108]

Oh my, on second thought. When I first tried my snus, I took a small pinch and it was fine. I just took a normal sized pinch and oh man that stuff is strong. I had to spit it out. And I only alkalized it at 2.3%. 50/50 Burley/Virginia. It could be because I only made it a couple days ago, but it was pre alkalized before cooking so I figured it didn't need 2 weeks to settle. I don't know.

I might make another not alkalized batch and mix it with what I've already made. I could take very small pinches I guess. I really got to find a way to make it weaker cause I can't handle the room spinning effect. Not my kinda ride. And I been dipping Copenhagen snuff, Longhorn loose, and General loose for 40 years with no issue. This stuff I made is nuts, still waiting for my heart to stop pounding.

I did put a tablespoon of licorice root and 5 drops of Bergamot food grade essential oil into about 100 grams of snus (tobacco weight before water). Not sure if I just had a reaction to the additives or what but it kinda felt like I was gonna have a heart attack.

Hopefully it just has to settle for two weeks. Besides not alkalizing it, because that's what I'm going to do, let me know if you have any other suggestions to make it weaker.

Blending it, or taking smaller amounts is about all you can do.
You could soak it in water, drain the water, and that would reduce the Nicotine, but there’s no way to know how much you removed, potentially killing the buzz completely (along with the flavor).
If it was my batch- I’d save and blend it.
If both the alkalized and non-alkalized batches were made with the same leaf, then what you are feeling is a fast onset of more nicotine, rather than the total nicotine.
Kinda like the difference between drinking a beer vs. drinking a straight shot of hard alcohol. If you measured out the total alcohol, it would be the same, but the concentration and immediate absorption by your body definitely feels very different (mild effect or the room is spinning).

 

[johnny108]

Bingo! Just tried my pre alkalized snus and it's great. I didn't die! I had no idea I could make my own snus, till now. Now I know I can successfully make it, that is awesome!! Now I can tweak and adjust to make it perfect for me. I'm stoked! I'm very happy with how the pre alkalized turned out. Haven't tried my post alkalized yet, it's still resting in the fridge. I'm sure it will be ok.

Congratulations!
Now it’s time to look for garden space…..

 

[HappyHawaiian]

Blending it, or taking smaller amounts is about all you can do.
You could soak it in water, drain the water, and that would reduce the Nicotine, but there’s no way to know how much you removed, potentially killing the buzz completely (along with the flavor).
If it was my batch- I’d save and blend it.
If both the alkalized and non-alkalized batches were made with the same leaf, then what you are feeling is a fast onset of more nicotine, rather than the total nicotine.
Kinda like the difference between drinking a beer vs. drinking a straight shot of hard alcohol. If you measured out the total alcohol, it would be the same, but the concentration and immediate absorption by your body definitely feels very different (mild effect or the room is spinning).

Thanks, yeah I haven't made a non alkalized batch yet, but I will since I have the tobacco flour already ground. I'm seriously considering quitting right now, after 40 years. Maybe I just had a bad reaction to the licorice root powder, because I think I used a lot. My other batch doesn't have any additives in it, so I'll see what that does to me. I swear though, if that happens to me again, I'm going to have to quit cold turkey.

And when I made my first post and said it was great, that was before I added the licorice root powder. So I took a smaller pinch, and there was no additives in it.

 

[loui loui]

The main difference I’ve noticed between alkalized and untreated tobacco is the speed the nicotine hits you.
A “rush” like feeling at the start with untreated tobacco giving the level of nicotine much slower, and longer lasting, often without the spike in blood pressure and dizziness that can occur when you take too big of a dip.

Back when I had a lower tolerance:

Alkalizing commercial tobacco

I use Al Capone cigarillos as chewing tobacco, and it can be pretty strong (chew it after having it in for an hour and it can make you sweat, and still has its flavor). I was however, wondering, if a half or quarter of a cigarillo would work, if the nicotine was more available…. I removed the...

fairtradetobacco.com

Interesting you mention a spike in blood pressure, maybe you have high blood pressure normally and should check it up.
I was at a health checkup and asked the nurse to measure blood pressure twice, first normally and a bit later with two gigantic (extra strong) snus under both sides. It was just slightly higher with snus but still within the safe zone.